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	<title>Comments on: Israelite Backdrop to the Two Powers, Part 4</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/06/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-4/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/06/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-4/</link>
	<description>Understanding the ancient Israelite context for first century Judaism's binitarian monotheism and the Christian Godhead</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 07:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/06/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-4/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=13#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Matt:  Good question.  It would be a mistake to assume that Israel "only" got their ideas via other cultures.  That would mean we have to assume (1) that Israel (pretty much alone) was too dumb or backward to come up with their own articulation of anything; and (2) that the idea that God could give revelation to Israel is incoherent or out of bounds.  I don't make either assumption, though there are many scholars who adopt them both.

My view is that, if we take the OT at face value for its theological-historical perspective, we see that the OT assumes and asserts that, at the beginning, humanity had the knowledge of the true God, and that this was lost. This knowledge was lost after Eden, and after the flood when things essentially are cast as starting over again.  The Babel event is critical (I assume you were one of my former newsletter subscribers, so recall the sections on Babel).  The "Deuteronomy 32 divine council worldview" has the nations in rebellion against the one true God (the implication is that they still had some knowledge of him).  In response, God disinherits the nations and puts them under lesser elohim.  This is the OT rationale for where the pagan pantheons come from.  From that point on, I'd suggest that every nation began to practice and articulate their own "theology" of how the the gods did things, who/what they were, what the hierarchy was like, what the relationship between a supreme God and the other gods was like (the One to the many - and most ANE polytheistic systems did have a high god and so had thoughts on this). Israel's theology is quite different in important places (the uniqueness of Yahweh is one such place - an uncreated, pre-existent being).  In other ANE systems there were other gods ("the olden gods") who created the high gods - usually the olden gods were identified with the elements of creation.  They really had no equivalent idea to an uncreated Creator.  So, there is a mix of "original" Israelite thinking and other elements.  Were those other elements "borrowings"? Could be. But they might also be deliberate theological departures to make a polemic theological point.  I tend to think that Israelite religion is an amalgam, but I also accept the God of Israel as the true God, and so I believe there was providential oversight that went into Israel's own expression of the "the One and the many" (at least the orthodox Israelite view of Yahweh worship).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt:  Good question.  It would be a mistake to assume that Israel &#8220;only&#8221; got their ideas via other cultures.  That would mean we have to assume (1) that Israel (pretty much alone) was too dumb or backward to come up with their own articulation of anything; and (2) that the idea that God could give revelation to Israel is incoherent or out of bounds.  I don&#8217;t make either assumption, though there are many scholars who adopt them both.</p>
<p>My view is that, if we take the OT at face value for its theological-historical perspective, we see that the OT assumes and asserts that, at the beginning, humanity had the knowledge of the true God, and that this was lost. This knowledge was lost after Eden, and after the flood when things essentially are cast as starting over again.  The Babel event is critical (I assume you were one of my former newsletter subscribers, so recall the sections on Babel).  The &#8220;Deuteronomy 32 divine council worldview&#8221; has the nations in rebellion against the one true God (the implication is that they still had some knowledge of him).  In response, God disinherits the nations and puts them under lesser elohim.  This is the OT rationale for where the pagan pantheons come from.  From that point on, I&#8217;d suggest that every nation began to practice and articulate their own &#8220;theology&#8221; of how the the gods did things, who/what they were, what the hierarchy was like, what the relationship between a supreme God and the other gods was like (the One to the many - and most ANE polytheistic systems did have a high god and so had thoughts on this). Israel&#8217;s theology is quite different in important places (the uniqueness of Yahweh is one such place - an uncreated, pre-existent being).  In other ANE systems there were other gods (&#8221;the olden gods&#8221;) who created the high gods - usually the olden gods were identified with the elements of creation.  They really had no equivalent idea to an uncreated Creator.  So, there is a mix of &#8220;original&#8221; Israelite thinking and other elements.  Were those other elements &#8220;borrowings&#8221;? Could be. But they might also be deliberate theological departures to make a polemic theological point.  I tend to think that Israelite religion is an amalgam, but I also accept the God of Israel as the true God, and so I believe there was providential oversight that went into Israel&#8217;s own expression of the &#8220;the One and the many&#8221; (at least the orthodox Israelite view of Yahweh worship).</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Matt...</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/06/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-4/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=13#comment-39</guid>
		<description>The question I'm left with is who originated some of these concepts like the cloud-rider, council, and co-regent.  The picture I get is that the Israelites used the "embrace, extend, extinguish" model to adopt and merge the cultures of the surrounding areas with their own, a practice that continues on throughout history (the title Pontifex Maximus, Christmas, Easter, mitres coming perhaps from priests of Dagon, etc).

If that's the case, how do we as Christians deal with the suggestion that some of our dogmatic beliefs like the co-regent personage of God were originally just concepts assimilated from other systems and that our God is just a balled-up version of Baal, Yam, Mot, Hadad, and whoever else.

I prefer to strip away the traditions and try to focus on the core of things but it seems now that peeling back these layers leads to empty nothingness.  This troubles me greatly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question I&#8217;m left with is who originated some of these concepts like the cloud-rider, council, and co-regent.  The picture I get is that the Israelites used the &#8220;embrace, extend, extinguish&#8221; model to adopt and merge the cultures of the surrounding areas with their own, a practice that continues on throughout history (the title Pontifex Maximus, Christmas, Easter, mitres coming perhaps from priests of Dagon, etc).</p>
<p>If that&#8217;s the case, how do we as Christians deal with the suggestion that some of our dogmatic beliefs like the co-regent personage of God were originally just concepts assimilated from other systems and that our God is just a balled-up version of Baal, Yam, Mot, Hadad, and whoever else.</p>
<p>I prefer to strip away the traditions and try to focus on the core of things but it seems now that peeling back these layers leads to empty nothingness.  This troubles me greatly.</p>
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		<title>By: cwmyers007</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/06/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-4/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>cwmyers007</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=13#comment-38</guid>
		<description>Good stuff!  I want more!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff!  I want more!</p>
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